Well, the one to the right (probably) isn’t a tankie though, but I approve their actions
Pretty much all Marxists are called tankies at this point, and Grayox is a Marxist. I’ve even seen Anarchists called tankie.
Yet I get called Tankie all the time … interesting.
Hey, if tankies were gonna vote for Biden to thwart trump, we wouldn’t have a problem. It’s that most that I’ve seen explicitly say they won’t. And they advocate that people shouldn’t. So - i don’t get it.
Youre right .If you vote for genocide, dont call yourself a communist. This meme is pure BS
At this point, I’m pretty sure this rhetoric is a result of deliberate ignorance about FPTP.
There’s only so many times we can explain elementary math to you people.
The maybe, MAYBE, it’s time for the US to start thinking in another way of electing the government.
100%. It’s unfortunate that the “harm reduction” thing is overshadowing anyone talking about why we have to do harm reduction in the first place.
The US as a whole seems more content on treating the symptoms of FPTP than taking care of the underlying issue.
Communism isn’t about identity and moral superiority. It is about making strategic decisions that enable the ultimate revolution of the working class to do away with capitalism, that includes tactical, cynical decisions at times. Some communists tried to do the whole “never voting on principle” or “only voting for the perfect fringe candidate” bit already, so we know how that turns out - sectarianism removed from class, and underestimating the enemy. Think of how some communists thought if Hitler got elected, Germany would finally have a revolution - turns out, no, it just led to the last bit of the mask of humanity to fall off capital and them being killed in the most brutal fashion. That mask of humanity may be a lie and indeed just a mask, but it has real effects, and the inhumanity can always get worse.
The big project in these times of reactionary drift globally is to build as much organised proletarian power as is possible - catch and organise those that fall from the middle class, learn how to use guns and fly drones, learn how to coordinate as a movement, learn how to support each other in day-to-day life, gain some class consciousness. While those that lack consciousness and still hold dreams of escaping their proletarisation within capitalism enable fascism, as long as they can cling to the ideological dream of the wealth of the past without realising the very system that enabled the old wealth already had the crises of today within it.
Thinking its the same to organise all that under a senile proto-fascist like Biden compared to a full-blown fascist like Trump and his allies is genuinely foolish. It reads like an utopian socialist dream about moral fortitude and self-serving identity instead of trying everything that can materially advance the working class and its consciousness.
Im not even sure what was your point. Just want to say that biden is not a proto fascist, he is a fascist. And trump is another. To think theres much difference between them is the same of thinking theres difference between the shit a dog did today and the one he did yesterday
Have you ever owned a dog? Their shits can be quite different in their nastiness from day to day. Your definition of fascism seems also to be lacking and reductive, thinking an out-of-their-time neolib like Biden puts out the same kind of repression on the working class as someone like Trump (Or Franco, Pinochet, Mussolini, Hitler) and the outlines in Project 2025 will.
Things will only get worse over the next few decades, we are currently still in a phase where the privileges of welfare state capitalism break away globally, leading to proper proletarisation of the population in the advanced capitalist, imperialist nations. That induces reactionary movements politically, and every year we can buy ourselves to organise and spread class consciousness before the violent repression is turned up to 11 is valuable.
Add the climate catastrophe on the top of capitalist decay, and things will get really, really ugly in the coming decades. If the communist movement isn’t properly organised as soon as possible, there is no guarantee that can be transformed into ultimately an opportunity for change.
Their shits can be quite different in their nastiness from day to day.
Would you eat any of them? Is this one less smelly than the other enought for you to eat it?
If the communist movement isn’t properly organised as soon as possible
Good starting point: reject that genocide joe is an alternative to trump. As long as you belive the democratic-republican system is all you have, you are doomed
The majority will not be convinced otherwise in a matter of five months. Thats not even a pipe dream, thats a drug trip
You do realise it’s possible to vote while also wanting and working towards a better system, right?
I mean, idk, one will get me killed for being trans and the other wont; seems pretty significant to me. At least relatively speaking, a bit hard to fight for the working class while Im dead, yknow?
Ok I’ll bite. What would you have people do instead and how do you think that would go if they did?
Let me guess, “Something something literally anything that interacts with outsiders makes you actual Hitler something something accelerationism something something historicism something something capitalism is scientifically destined to fall like, tomorrow if you just don’t vote for anyone but CPUSA guys I swear.”
EDIT: Wait do people not know that I’m mocking tankies here?
Im not the one to decide this. Its up to a party to elaborate the decision. As far as i can see, you should have a candidate that represents working people as a class. Its this interest that should be in the center of any left wing politician. And no, identitarism is not the intesrest of the working class. That being said, no man of the system will ever represent the working class, you need an authentic option. And yes, it means a communist option inevitably, but thats another discussion (why any other political position will be insufficient in the long run). But to even think about this is absurd to most usamericans
No shit, Sherlock.
But what are you going to specifically do come November? What specific outcome do you see if others don’t vote for Biden because he doesn’t pass your purity test? Do you see this outcome being good for the country, good for workers, or good for marginalized peoples?
You just called doing a genocide “not passing a purity test” ffs i dont need to talk to you
Let me be as clear as I can: If you get your way and Biden loses DO YOU THINK TRUMP WILL DO MORE OR LESS GENOCIDE?
Professional anti-shiller here. These fuckers aren’t worth wasting the time on.
You can choose between the genocide abroad, or at home. You lot read to me like you weigh Palestinian lives as more important than mine
As a South American who had to choose between right and extreme right, being a leftist, I completely understand the frustration about voting Biden. And what’s more, agree completely he does not deserve to be voted. But, in order to defeat fascism and with all other cards now played, Biden is the lesser of two evils and taking the moral high ground could result on fascism taking over the USA. I suggest voting for Biden. My two cents…
He’s not the lesser of two evils. Cut this horseshit rhetoric. Biden has done a good job. No-one is perfect but calling him evil is just right wing propaganda both sides bullshit.
Trump is evil. If you want to see evil, vote Trump.
several hundred years ago we had the choice between electing a slaveowner that fucked his slaves vs a slaveowner that didn’t fuck his slaves. Now we get to pick between a genocidal warmonger bent on keeping us all in debt servitude that is pro trans rights vs a genocidal dictatorship that is against trans rights.
Biden sucks ass, stop gaslighting us if you want us to vote for your shithead
When did Biden support genocide?
Failing to do enough to immediately prevent an entirely separate foreign government from conducting its own genocide does not count.
Why would Israel have a hard time getting munitions from any other first-world country, especially when they have the excuse of getting attacked by terrorists?
If I was american I’d obviously be voting for Biden, but ignoring or denying that he’s supporting the genocide currently being undertaken by the Israeli government doesn’t make him look better.
Of course, Trump would support it too, hence the obviously.
I understand where are you coming from. But you honestly believe that a person that enables genocide abroad isn’t evil?
Biden is presiding over the most progressive/liberal administration in U.S. history. That doesn’t mean it’s liberal enough but it sure as hell beats any previous administration by a mile.
He’s not the lesser of two evils.
I wish Americans had enough of a heart to give your average Palestinian the same benefit of the doubt as Strom Thurmond’s best friend.
I actually love this model:
Biden supporters: “Unite around candidate Biden or prepare to watch Democracy die!”
Biden detractors: “You guys are nuts! That old bastard can barely put 3 sentences together. I will argue we should have a younger more vibrant candidate like Big Gretch who would wipe the floor with Trump all the way until I vote for Biden’s senile ass on November 5th!”
Biden supporter: “You dumb fucks, Whitmer herself says she isn’t interested and is all-in for Biden! But she’d be a great candidate and I would fully support her if Biden steps down and she was the nominee. But he won’t, so pull your heads out of your asses and support him!”
Like, if we gotta argue, let’s have fun with it and just vote 100% for dems top to bottom on November 5th.
Who is Big Gretch?
Forget reality. Embrace Blue MAGA. Run senile geriatric. Lose because not everyone is in the Blue MAGA cult.
The outcome of this election is either Trump or not Trump, The election system has been specifically fine-tuned over decades so that it strongly favours Trump’s party, despite him having fewer votes overall. There is one other party that is financially entrenched enough to have a chance at being voted, realistically.
Tackling the entire election process to actually catch up to democracies worldwide is a whole different topic altogether and realistically not achievable before this particular election, so if you are talking about preventing Trump via election (before Trump factually prevents being elected out of office during his term), the choice between either Trump or Biden is the reality.
The outcome is Trump or not Trump.
Nowhere does it say Biden has to be the candidate. Biden will only guarantee Trump.
Don’t care who the DNC picks…voting Blue.
That’s great for you let’s hope all other Democrats are mindless drones as well and literally nobody cares about the candidate.
Why even have a primary? Just place a sack of potatoes there and call it a day. Nobody cares who the president is right?
Not mindless, just operating in reality.
Linkerbaan knows the winner is gonna be the Dem or Rep nominee. They just REALLY don’t want to admit it.
Biden isn’t a “neo-liberal shill” he’s a boring, middle of the road corporatist.
Republicans and Democrats have been moving steadily to the right for the last 40 years. So now, the Democrats are where the Republicans used to be in the 1980s: friends of banks, insurance and pharmaceutical companies. And the Republicans have moved all the way into an insane asylum.
Biden isn’t a “neo-liberal shill” he’s a {exact definition of neo-liberal shill}
It boggles the mind sometimes.
I mean… What else would that mean?
There are dictionaries that tell you what the words “liberal” and “conservative” mean. Quit relying on your own snazzy spidey-sense and check them out.
When there are people that are still voting, even if it’s not for Biden, I disagree with it, but only politely. It’s still your right as American.
But that isn’t the message going out in so many of these memes. Barely any content encourages any specific candidate, and evokes ridiculous concepts like “A vote for Biden is a vote for genocide” - without putting forward an alt candidate that has a genuine plan to prevent genocide (obviously, Trump is not one).
The reason I’m fine with generally just ensuring people vote, whoever it’s for, is because statistically Democrats win elections that more people vote for. I have faith that genuine, fair popularity contests will go my way.
I’m a green voter. I have voted green in the past three presidential elections, and intend to do so again this year. If you have an argument as to why that’s a bad idea that isn’t one that I’ve heard before, get in touch!
you’ve probably heard this before, but you’ve been voting republican for three elections. the fact that you’ve heard it before doesn’t make it untrue, it just makes you vote republican on purpose.
I heard that argument in 2016 and it hadn’t become any less false than it was then.
33.1% of eligible voters didn’t vote in 2020, 40.8% didn’t vote in 2016. Your priorities are misplaced. You should be more concerned about these nonvoters, they outnumber third party voters seventeenfold and are far less stubborn.
You haven’t changed my mind.
first of all, there are no priorities, you asked about your vote and I answered. i would say the same to a nonvoter.
second of all, oh wait i did. because you are not really different from a nonvoter. except as you admitted more stubborn… so you’re just worse. thanks for just volunteering that info.
you can add yourself to the 40.8% because you’re all doing the same thing: voting for the republican party.
People are far more likely to call out or blame third party voters than nonvoters, despite nonvoters having an order of magnitude larger effect on the outcome. I wasn’t meaning to call you out specifically.
However, I think you should probably stop encouraging third party and nonvoters to vote for republicans. That doesn’t seem to be in your best interest.
they do it because at least nonvoters can say they’re too lazy or apathetic. the fact that you get your ass all the way to the ballot box to essentially do the same thing does attract some attention.
also take your threats to someone who thinks it holds any weight; i personally don’t give a shit if you vote republican or third party or not at all, cause as I’ve been saying, they’re the same vote. if you don’t vote D you’re voting R one way or another.
… Is far easier to convince someone who hasn’t already made up their mind. Spend your time productively.
I do not make threats. I have never made any threats. Your argument reads far more as encouragement to vote for an R instead of a D. That is an unwise argument to make if you care about maximizing the number of D votes.
But I’m voting G regardless. Goodbye!
you were the one who invited people, i don’t give a shit either way
Because of the nature of FPTP voting it only matters if you’re in a swing state. If you’re voting green from a solidly blue state, keep at it, but if you’re in i.e. Michigan or Nevada, please reconsider.
My only regret in 2016 was not living in a swing state. I know how ftpt works.
Democrats can earn my vote by implementing ranked choice voting. They’re a solid 3rd choice pick on the ballot.
It’s FPTP, but ok.
In that system, it is two-party and people who didn’t vote for the opponent of the winner, gave their vote to the winner (it was one less vote needed to win). You can never win with your candidate but you make the winning side need one less vote…just like if you voted for them. In some cases, like green party, they would only vote blue if they literally had no choice but red and blue. So they are always taking a vote away from blue. Every single election, green party voters have only helped the GOP. Like libertarians voting third party only ever helps the Democrats.
Democrats have had many opportunities to push for ranked choice voting but chose not to. How is ftpt the fault of the parties that have never had the power to do anything about it?
It is F P T P…and yeah, full voting reform takes time. SOME STATES have ranked choice or at least a representative split of their electoral votes instead of winner take all…just like SOME STATES started with weed legalization and it spread, SOME STATES started with abolishing slavery and it spread…we are JUST getting it going and we might lose any chance at it if p2025 gets pushed through and we lose all hope of it. Read about p2025 and the entrenchment of garbage people into every facit of our government so we don’t have a chance of it spreading ever again…assuming we get to actually vote (and not end up with a Russian “democracy”).
It is just a confluence of bad timings as inaction was finally starting to become change.
I have a question…do you actually expect them to ever win without voting reform?
If it wasn’t for democrats and republicans spoiling the election, yes!
The smaller party is the spoiler, and the big parties wont just…not run. Barring electoral reform, under what circumstances do you think they could actually win? Please remember to account for strategic voting
Voting Green appears to be the way to go. Current Democrats are unwilling to compromise on anything, not even stop a Genocide.
Promoting this behavior any further is the actual biggest danger to democracy not their permastuck 2016 fiction of having to save democracy every 4 years.
I can’t my head around how voting Republican stops genocide…that is a leap in logic my brain just isn’t doing.
I can’t my head around how voting Democrat stops genocide…that is a leap in logic my brain just isn’t doing.
My statement is actually not a strawman. Sad reality.
Nobody said voting Democrat will stop genocide…you said voting Republican will. Just trying to figure out how.
Am I the only one who read the right side in the voice of Scruffy from Futurma?
“Neoliberal shill” who has achieved more leftist policy goals in three and a half years than all US leftists combined have in the last 30.
Undoing fascist rules put in by the previous resident does not count as achieving “leftist policy goals”; implementation of permanent law does.
Meanwhile, people have lost abortion rights, the rule of law has basically been suspended for potential coup participants. So yeah, I’m just gonna say we’re not doing well. Meanwhile, I’m still going to vote Biden no matter what. We’ve already lost the democracy, but I’m going to delay the implementation of the far right authoritarian state for as long as possible.
But abortion rights were lost because people refused to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
Do you really feel that this is a relevant thing to say to someone who says they’re voting for biden even if he’s 6ft underground?
I’m not saying it to you. I’m responding to your comment.
There hasn’t been anything close to a leftist president in America since FDR.
There hasn’t been anything close to a leftist president in America since FDR.
How FDR Saved Capitalism | Hoover Institution
During the economic crisis of the 1930s, many expected a socialist revolution. The revolution never came. Why? The man in the White House co-opted the left. By Hoover fellow Seymour Martin Lipset and Gary Marks.
🤡
Lmao i didnt call him a leftist.
🤓
I wonder if people who use tankie (and similar) unironically would like a Fischer Price See n Say for politics. It would produce random quotes out of context and people can have fun putting them into arbitrary categories.
I understand your stance and respect your freedom to do that. I myself have held my nose and voted for the lesser evil many times in my life.
But now that the lesser evil is literally evil, I can’t do it anymore. I can’t back Trump or Biden. I won’t vote for a genocide.
If a genocide happens, it won’t be by my vote. And if this country collapses under Trump, it’s only the inevitable happening a little sooner.
When folks start winding up in camps,I hope you’ll take comfort in the thought of “I didn’t do anything to stop it, so it’s not my fault!”
If trump wins, he voted for trump. That is how spoiler votes and non-voting works in our system.
The people with his absurd mentality are quitters. If the worst comes to pass, and the world suffers harshly for it, I trust history will remember his ilk in the exact same vein as MAGA.
The people with his absurd mentality are quitters.
I’m sorry, is supporting Biden supposed to be a test of endurance?
That’s pretty fucked up.
Endure, maintain the crappy status quo, try as we might to bring about change strikes me as better than Give up and bring about the worst timeline possible.
Also, I support stopping p2025, not Biden directly. At most it is supporting those around him.
I’m not giving up. I’m throwing my efforts behind other options.
Your “other option” is going into a Burger King and demanding spaghetti.
Our trash-tier system only supports two parties. If you would normally vote blue (caring about others and being anti-genocide tells me you would be more left than right) and don’t do so this time, your lack of a blue vote means red needs one less to win. This functionally means you would be voting red. Your spoiler-vote protest would actually mean something in ranked-choice or other systems, but we don’t have that, so you are just voting red, but with more steps.
I am all for any other candidate, to be fair, but the whole non-voting or spoiler-votingis a different thing entirely.
This functionally means you would be voting red. Your spoiler-vote protest
It’s not a protest vote. I want the Greens to win. And if everyone voted Green, then the Greens would win.
Maybe you’re preventing the Greens from winning by voting Blue.
I still heap a large amount of blame on the bernie bros for 2016.
As much as I wanted Bernie, same.
If, 30 years from now, the choice is between a democrat who wants 5 genocides and a republican who wants 10, will you still cling to American electoralism as hard as you are now? Will you still be militantly democrat?
This logic isn’t sustainable.
The correct answer for genuine supporters of Harm Reduction via electoralism is usually yes, as that’s the logic of electoralism. Anything else is to admit you simply have a different “no return” threshold from others.
The fact of the matter is that you either stick to your guns about believing in electoralism, and no matter what vote for the lesser evil among the 2 largest candiates, or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re picking where you draw your personal line in the sand.
For some people, genocide at all is a line, domestic or foreign. For others, foreign is fine, domestic is not.
I don’t think a vote is an endorsement. Sometimes it’s an end of a bus to stand in as it’s teetering over the edge of a cliff. You might be shoulder to shoulder with a murderer, and you might be there for a while ,it might also be for nothing - but there’s a chance it doesn’t fall off. It isn’t inevitable. It’s very evitable.
Ah, so you plan on no longer paying taxes?
